Former Chairman of the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission and 2011 presidential candidate of the Action Congress of Nigeria, Mallam Nuhu Ribadu, in this interview with WAHEED BAKARE and ALLWELL OKPI, speaks on the effects of corruption on Nigeria and his experience in politics
What would you say is the most pressing problem of Nigeria?
It is insecurity and problems within communities. There are a lot of communal crises. Many people in this country are very poor. If you go to some places, some people cannot afford to eat. There are many challenges facing us but I think the most serious problem is insecurity.
What is the way out of these myriad of problems?
It calls for unity. It calls for less politics and more thoughts about the interest of Nigeria. Everybody must be prepared to make their own contributions. We should all play our parts to confront these challenges. We need to do everything to ensure that there is less tension and more patriotism and love for Nigeria. There is also a need for seriousness on the part of the leaders.
What role does corruption play in all these challenges you've mentioned?
You could see clearly that I refused to list it (corruption) as one of the problems really facing us. But behind all these problems are mismanagement, corruption, poor governance and bad leadership that have been ongoing for a long time and have brought us to where we are now. Corruption is central to the failure of government that we have witnessed, not just in Nigeria but in so many other countries, particularly the developing nations. In these countries, you find very few extremely rich people and in most cases over 90 per cent living in poverty and difficulty. In the majority, you find that parents do not have money. Children do not have work. Parents cannot afford to pay school fees in most communities in Nigeria. Even those who are educated do not have jobs; it's all over. The root of it is corruption and wastage because the resources of this country go to a small number of people and is often taking out and not used for our people and the development of our country, thereby creating the difficulty that we are facing now. Wherever you have corruption, you find abuses; abuses and denial of fundamental rights, failure of institutions and general collapse of systems. These are all attributed to corruption and the corruption is ongoing.
To what extent has corruption affected this country?
It is corruption that has destroyed the name and image of Nigeria today. We are not respected all over the world. We are not regarded. For example, look at what happened just this week. The President of the United States of America, Barrack Obama, came to Africa with 600 people, mostly businessmen. They refused to come to Nigeria. None of them set foot on this country. And this is a country of about 170 million people. They went to countries like Senegal, South Africa, and Tanzania. If you put all the three together, you get a population of just about half of the population of Nigeria. But they (Americans) don't even want to talk about us. But we are pretending as if it does not matter and we don't want to talk about it. I don't know whether we are ashamed of it or we are just not accepting that corruption has messed up Nigeria and destroyed us. Corruption has caused all these problems we are facing, including the insecurity that I talked about.
But how can we put an end to corruption and mismanagement of the country?
All of us as Nigerians would decide that the time has come to put a stop to it. Let's tell our leaders that we are tired; that we cannot take it any longer. We should let them know that what they have been throwing at us is too much and that we are asking for a change. Let them change.
How can Nigerians do this? Is it through a revolution or through a change of government?
There are so many ways to say we are tired, we disagree and we are not happy with what is going on. Of course, I will never call for violence. But, there are so many ways people can register their disapproval of the way things are going. You can do it through complaining; you can do it through refusing to be part of it; you can do it by disagreeing and condemning it; and you can do it by getting prepared to vote the right people into office. Elections are coming soon; Nigerians must start getting prepared for that and say this time, we are not going to be hoodwinked. Nobody is going to use anything in the name of religion, tribe, region, or section to deceive us to get elected into office simply to take care of himself, his friends and those who are close to him. Let Nigerians say now is the time to get honest people into office, people that will stop this corruption and work for the good of our country. Let them be prepared to bring new set of people that can grow this economy; that can unify this country and make everyone comfortable with the leadership. We need leaders that can unify us as a people. The earlier we do that the better for us, because it is God's wish that we are one and I don't think anything can happen to this union. So, we better get ready and start accepting that reality and work as brothers and sisters to fix our problems. And it starts by bringing in honest people. We better start taking these issues seriously. It is time for us to be like the rest of the world. We have seen what is happening in the Arab world. We have seen what is happening today in Turkey and Brazil. These people are even more comfortable. The only reason Brazilians are protesting is that the government increased the cost of transport by just about seven cents or so and all of them are out saying, 'no, no,' 'we are not going to agree, we are not going to accept it.' Let us say 'no' to a government that will put so much money into different things and forget about the welfare of the people. Once we do this, the government will be forced to change some of its policies and divert money from some other unnecessary areas to the welfare of their people. In Nigeria, we have got to a point where together as one people, we will start speaking with one voice so that our leaders can listen. Nigerians are tired. We are fed up with this bad name; we are fed up with this bad image. We want a change. We want improvement in our lives. We want jobs for our young men and women. We want better schools, hospitals, good roads. We are entitled to these and there is money. Anybody who tells you there is no money in Nigeria is lying, because the money is there. We are blessed. It is a very rich country. The money we have is enough to address our difficulties and the immediate challenges we are facing. Let Nigerians tell them that we are tired of you people enjoying and buying airplanes. The elite in this country do not even fly commercial airlines any more. They don't. Tell them we are tired. We also want fairness and justice. If all of us come together, stand together, think alike and make a strong resolve that our country requires this change, this thing will happen. It doesn't have to be by violence. It is just the resolve that it is enough. The mess that has been going on must stop.
You spoke out recently about the state of the nation and the Presidency responded by saying that you are an ingrate; that you were picked up to head a presidential committee after the Action Congress of Nigeria dumped you in 2011. What is your response to this?
I think this does not require my own direct response. Some Nigerians have spoken and I've seen a single Nigerian that spoke in defence of what they (presidency) said. As a Nigerian, I'm entitled to my views and opinion. It would be improper and unfair for the leadership of this country to attack an individual simply because he voiced his opinion. I don't think what they have said deserves any response from me because they are all lies. They are worn out issues. For years I've been attacked and abused, but I've survived them. This is just another set of them. Those who were abusing me before, where are they today? Some of them are in prison. So, I'm not bothered about this set of people who are also the new 'enemies' of Ribadu. There is no problem; it is left for Nigerians to decide. It is not true that they picked me up. The time when I accepted to come and serve as the chairman of the committee, I had a very high-paying, high profile international assignment as an international monitor in Afghanistan. I was getting a lot of compensation for that work. I left it and came to Nigeria when I was called upon by the government to come and contribute. I've not received one penny up till now. They have not paid me one kobo. I refused to take it, they should go and check. One single kobo, I have not taken for the entire work that I did. Since I left public office, I've not received one kobo from the government of Nigeria, including my own gratuity and pension up till now. So, concerning what they said, I leave them to God. It is not even true that I was brought back to the country, nobody ever stopped me from coming to Nigeria. I left the country willingly because, when I lost my job in Nigeria, I got other jobs outside Nigeria, as a senior fellow in Oxford University and also in Washington DC. Then, change came to Nigeria, it was God's work, so I decided to come back to my country. Nobody ever stopped me from coming into Nigeria. And in terms of the restoration of my rank and removal of whatever that was against me, it was a court order. I still have the court order. I challenged government in court and I got a court order. The judgment is still with me. It was at the time when the court was going to deliver judgment that the Federal Government stepped in and apologised to me and said I did nothing wrong, and that they were not interest in continuing the case.
How do you feel seeing that after your labour with the committee, the recommendations of the report has not been implemented several months after?
Really, it's about all of us Nigerians. It's not about Nuhu Ribadu. I did my part and we came out with a report about 10 months ago and it has not been implemented. It is for Nigerians to ask questions. Personally, of course, I think it is not nice that after so much work that we did, we came up with a very good report that could change the petroleum industry and promote transparency and accountability and stop corruption, but it has been thrown out. Up till now, they have refused to implement it. Nigerians are entitled to ask why.
Another thing they said was that you took that appointment to get back at the ACN for dumping you during the 2011 presidential election.
ACN did not dump me. That is very unfair to say.
How come you didn't win in the South-West states that ACN control, except Osun?
Election is either you win or you lose. It doesn't mean that if you lose, you were dumped. It is not fair and it is not right. At the time we went into that election, we went in simply because we believed that the country wanted a change and needed a change and we provided that opportunity. But the opposition was not very organised. We did not succeed in what we have just succeeded doing in the merger and the alliance. At the time when we went for the 2011 elections, we attempted to come together. Before the election, I withdrew for Gen. Muhammadu Buhari. I literarily did not contest the election, even though we did not finalise it in the most successful way. But the understanding was that we were going to come together and present one presidential candidate. The last week to the election, I conceded. I stepped down for Gen. Muhammadu Buhari of the Congress for Progressive Change. It was not very successful simply because of some reasons that are not from my own side or from the side of the ACN. So, if anyone says I was defeated, the person does not know what he is talking about. I was never defeated. I went into that election as a candidate that stepped down for another opposition candidate. Even with that, over two million Nigerians went ahead to vote for me. And I tell you that they were probably the authentic, legitimate and valid votes that were cast on that day, because they were votes for a candidate that did not have polling agents. Do you know what it means that two million Nigerians voted for me even after I had come out publicly to say I had stepped down for another candidate? It is not like the '419' People Democratic Party votes. Probably they never got up to two million votes genuinely. Or probably no other candidate got that. It is totally wrong for anybody to say that I was abandoned by ACN. It never happened.
So, you have hopes that the All Progressives Congress would pose a serious challenge to Peoples Democratic Party in 2015?
It's not just me. You can see how Nigerians are desperate for it. Nigerians are crying for it. We want a change. It's been 14 years of total failure; dismal failure of the PDP. People are saying enough is enough. Today, we have a large party; a national party, not a sectional party that is going to challenge PDP. It is not about Nuhu Ribadu, it is about all of us. Every single Nigerian should pray for this because, maybe, this is where the salvation lies; maybe that is where the solution is; maybe this platform will produce Nigerians who believe in Nigeria; those who are honest, who are fair, who are just. Maybe this merger will produce people who will bring this country together, stop corruption and lead this country towards growth and development.
As a former chairman of the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission, how do you rate the fight against corruption under the current administration led by President Goodluck Jonathan?
I've said a lot about this. You see that some people that were convicted in some of the cases that I handled had been pardoned. So, you don't need to ask anything after that. It is a terrible disappointment. It is very sad. We don't need this in our country.
Some people believe that under former President Olusegun Obasanjo, EFFC was selective and you were used to attack perceived political enemies of the administration.
Can you mention anybody he used me against, so that I will answer?
People like Tafa Balogun and Diepreye Alamieyeseigha, and some others were believed to have fallen out of favour with Obasanjo when EFCC went after them.
How can you say an Inspector-General of Police will fall out with the President? Tafa Balogun was the Inspector-General of Police of Obasanjo. What was his reason for falling out with him (Obasanjo)? It doesn't add up. For Alamieyeseigha, you should go and ask the court that convicted him and the Metropolitan Police that are still looking for him. You can accuse them of also being used by Obasanjo before you come to me.
What about some politicians in your party, ACN, and the ones you now associate with in the merger, APC. Don't you think some of them also looted state treasuries?
It is not my business to look and check every single person. Politics is about people coming together, with all of us having roles to play. All of us will play our positions to make a new Nigeria. I'm in politics to participate, to look for an opportunity and chance to make my own contribution and help make a better country. That is all. It is not really about judging anybody. That is not right. It is not fair. I'm not the kind of person who believes so much in myself that I look at every other person as bad or corrupt. No, I don't do that. I respect individuals. I treat people with respect. But it is a different thing, if I had my work and my work was to fight corruption. In that case, if anybody who is corrupt comes my way, I will do what is right and just. As long as that is not my work, I don't think it is fair for me to start judging other people.
Will run for the presidency again?
We are today working for a merger. That is all what we are concentrating on. We are working so hard to ensure that this party succeeds. And out of it, we will work hard to bring out anybody who we consider to be the best; that will win elections and bring solutions to the problems of our country. That is where I stand. For now, I'm a very loyal and active member of this new party in the making. It is not time to bring out ambitions, especially presidential ambition for that matter.
The North has insisted that a northerner must take over the presidency in 2015. Do you think you could possibly emerge as the region's consensus candidate?
I'm not for that. I believe this country needs a good and honest leader; a leader that you don't need to say he is a northerner or a southerner; a leader that will be fair and just to all. I'm looking forward to such an individual emerging from the APC. Such a person will promote unity in Nigeria, so that we can forget about these divisions of North, South; Christians, Muslims. They are distractions that cannot take us anywhere. I'm for Nigerian president, not a president of the North or a president of the South, or a president who is a Christian or a president who is a Muslim.
In specific terms, how would you tackle corruption, if you were president?
I will lead the war against corruption. I will not be corrupt and if I'm not corrupt, people around me will not be corrupt. If it is my responsibility to enforce the laws of Nigeria, which is the responsibility of the president, I will enforce the laws against corruption properly. I will show the way. It will require leadership at the highest level. It will require all seriousness and honesty. I've done it before, I'll do it again. I'll stop corruption in Nigeria.
